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Post by laerilin on Jul 28, 2010 18:26:06 GMT -5
Hey, um... so I know I'm very much the new guy here, so I apologize in advance if this seems in any way out of line. Maybe I'm mistaken in my assumptions, but I thought that this was a fun game environment, not a war zone or an aggressive writing competition. If this is normal and the way in which you guys are accustomed to communicating, then I apologize for my ignorance. I just feel that it is often difficult to post something, like an in character reaction, or a request for more information, or even just a general tip as far as writing/grammar goes without having to worry that someone is going to get upset and argumentative about it.
I am not pointing any fingers or trying to place blame in any way, only asking if this is the normal sort of general atmosphere for forum games. Like I said, I realize that I'm the new person, so I just wondered.
I personally would be much more comfortable posting both in and out of character if I knew that my comments, characters, and opinions would be treated with some degree of respect, even if that only means that I am not flamed for having an opinion.
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Kiirnodel
Keeps Coming Back for More
Posts: 937
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Post by Kiirnodel on Jul 28, 2010 18:57:24 GMT -5
By my reckoning, the amount of out-of-character aggression that has been happening recently is exactly that, recent.
Don't get me wrong, in a lot of our games people are very aggressive, but usually it is in-character actions and reactions. As an example, our longest running active game, Xorvintaal, is a primarily Evil game, so character interactions carry a corresponding amount of "counter-productivity"...
This may just be me remembering what I want to remember. If you have time and want to read a bit, you can look through some of our other games... that way you can see for yourself and make your own judgments.
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Post by laerilin on Jul 28, 2010 19:55:01 GMT -5
I really honestly have no problem with aggressiveness if it is in character. That helps make games interesting if the characters don't all just get along.
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Post by Mesavan on Jul 28, 2010 20:46:13 GMT -5
I am sorry that there is an abundance of heated out of character drama. I wanted to give Joe a chance to play nice, but whenever he has a disagreement, or sometimes even in regular conversations, he turns aggressive (from what I have seen of his behavior since joining a month before you). I hope this is no longer an issue.
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Post by joelocaust on Jul 29, 2010 0:57:22 GMT -5
It is a fun game environment. I'd hope that ruling questions wouldn't ruin that for you. Of course, everyone from the same general crew seems to dislike my enthusiastic willingness to question rules as "insulting" or "offensive," but if you'll take the time to look at my posts, I have NEVER addressed anyone specifically with an insult or complaint, merely their rulings as a GM. I have not received the same courtesy, and those that tend to challenge me rather than my character or rulings questionings will often attribute conflict to me as a person, but I continue to uphold the rule that I will be as civil and in-character as I am allowed to be.
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The Lord of Blades
Game Masters
Ero Sennin
Please allow me to introduce myself: I'm a man of wealth and taste
Posts: 1,314
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Post by The Lord of Blades on Jul 29, 2010 3:42:54 GMT -5
[rant] Mesa, I've been skimming Arcanamirium and it's OOC so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt alright? I'm not trying to make you out to be a bad guy (in fact, I'm not doing that with anyone) I'm just trying to clarify something I've noticed: from what I've seen, Joe only gets 'abrasive/antagonistic', I'm gonna term it, when others join in on an issue that he's asking you for a ruling/reasoning on or that has already been resolved. The OOC threads have to be taken in stride, and this goes for everyone in fact. If an OOC argument is going on, you're welcome to put in your 2 cents, but be productive. Don't jump in and post a: "You're being a wanker" post. Joe, that cuts both ways, don't come back in and post: "I'm done with this dumbness." and " I also call people on meta-gaming" and "Just like all you and your white-highlighted other-language crap.", that's not contributing anything worthwhile and if you have negative opinions about such things, continue to consult the DM or take it up with the people themselves but keep it civil. Those are most certainly instances of: "addressed someone specifically with an insult or complaint," that you claim not to do, or rather, a broader group without naming them, but it's clear who you're referring to in these instances and you're not doing it in the unoffensive manner you claim to be. Of course, everyone needs to bear in mind: this is text. Text carries zero emotional weight behind it excluding massive use of caps, exclamation points, or little emoticons afterward, and even those can be misconstrued. So be careful with what you write and reread what you've read. Try to consider other viewpoints when it comes to what you're saying. Someone may take a benign joke as a mortal insult. Now, I don't know what happened in the PMs between you two that got 'moved into public' but an OOC area is, in my opinion: a grounds for third party opinions, attempts at explanation, and a place to... in simplest terms... complain to the DM. If Joe is asking for a reasoning behind something, go ahead 'n give it to him or ask someone else to explain it, but I don't think "you can leave or I can make you leave" is a good way to handle anything if he's still questioning it. In my opinion it's the obligation of the DM to satisfy their players questions to a reasonable extent. If Joe isn't satisfied by your answer, either try and expand upon it or explain that it's the best he's going to get and you can't give anymore. If it has to be "Magic!" or "A wizard did it" then so be it, but I try not to leave an honestly interested/concerned player hanging if I can help it. It has to be a pretty bad argument for that kind of "leave or I'll make you leave" sentiment to come up and he has to have really shaken up your game in my opinion for that to ever be a valid option. Like I said, missing the context I have no idea what went on between the two of you, but if him being flustered at not understanding your reasoning and him 'lashing out' at people making "drop it" posts (which are almost never a good idea I've found as they only keep a topic going and make a person feel like they're being ganged-up on) is grounds for kicking him from the game, then I'd say the OOC issues are effecting in-game too much for an OOC-thread. I can understand not liking a player, but until their character starts ruining your game somehow, I feel that asking them to leave is a little severe. Especially in a forum environment where you literally never need to talk to them or socialize with them beyond game-related questions of an OOC variety and the game itself. Regardless, you're the DM so you have the final say there, I just don't want to see any "rivalries" and "ill-blood" build up on this forum so I'm cutting into that matter right now. Please don't threaten people to leave a game. The moment you do that, things go sour. You can politely offer them a chance to back out of the game, and then later you can ask or request they withdraw, but threats for "bad behavior" are begging for trouble. If they refuse to withdraw when politely asked, we have mods for that. Now, back to the matter on hand: Laerilin, this isn't the kind of attitude we want to perpetuate here, but I gotta advocate something. We have forum mods. Nick (Cadic's Devoted) and I are essentially the right and left hands of Locke Alexander (our Admin) and Dave is the board auditor so if some kind of post-business gets out of hand he can no doubt delete them or at the very least put it under a 'lock' pending review of other Mods and himself. We have 4 of us in charge of everything: Max (Locke Alexander), Nick (Cadic's Devoted), Dave (Dave), and Myself (The Lord of Blades). So, when things like this come up? You can contact us. In fact, I encourage it. Please. Contact us. Point fingers in private. We (or at the very least: I) want to know what you're thinking and how so it can be fixed. Also, a lot of us know the other players pretty well or can refer you to the mod/admin that does so we can tell you if it's an isolated incident or whatever. I want these boards to be appealing and welcoming to everyone. So, I agree with Kiirnodel. It's recent and no, it is not a unanimous board 'mentality/environment'. I am, however, going to interject that with you being in only one game it may be a little premature to be making a post like this, but that's just my opinion and I don't honestly know if you've read or skimmed over the other games. No offense meant by that, just an observation and again my advocating of "contact a mod" as a first step to most issues, even though I hope we're all friends enough that you can just PM the person who's bothering you and work it out friendly-like. We're all adults here (I'm pretty sure) so it shouldn't be too hard to sort out any differences we've got. [/rant] Oh, and other mods/admins (Max/Nick/Dave) lemme know if you think I've overstepped my bounds here a little bit. I don't want to obligate you to do things you don't want to.
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Post by laerilin on Jul 29, 2010 8:28:05 GMT -5
Thank you. Like I said, this was not meant to be a complaint or placing of blame, I just honestly wondered about play environment. It is different than the forums I used to play on, that is all. I personally haven't run into any major conflict with anyone, and I am very much enjoying the game. I just felt like some of the other players seemed to be on each others' cases a lot lately and I didn't know if that was just a normal sort of friendly rivalry that everyone was used to or if it was actually as negatively argumentative as it seemed at times.
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Post by Mesavan on Jul 29, 2010 17:32:31 GMT -5
I'm sorry, Lord of Blades, that your mediation was required. I admit that I was getting aggravated and defensive to joe's posts. For those not interested in the wall of text, see the very bottom for what I think. This whole matter about me not wanting him in my game (which i could have worded better) was not a single incident issue and it is not an issue of his character actions. I actually think his in character actions are great. Before the game even started, I was hesitant to allow him in my game from what I read him post in other games (I read arguments while he was playing The RANCOR that turned aggressive ooc). Most of all, I didn't like the two posts that were directed towards me when I was starting the game were offensive. Feedback = Too many hives, not enough bees. No one posts in games with clear-cut goals/plots. I doubt the success of a game with weakness of story. Prove me wrong, though. People enjoy doing that. I will not be joining though, so have fun and good luck. I can see that I took it too personally, but why do you have to post this when I am doing my first attempt at being active in the forum? LoL, I have been keeping an eye on this, especially since the other games aren't moving. At all. Anyways, it's a travesty that you have no Evoker. Is that a kosher specialization and do you have the courage and fortitude to take the mighty Joe upon thy game? If it's all good, I'm in. I'll have a character posted tonight or tomorrow (lol, when I figure out wtf pathfinder is). I am hesitant to take this in a positive way, it looks down on me both in the "I'm bored" aspect and the "you cannot handle me" aspect. Despite these two posts, I wanted to get to know him and give him a chance (I literally said this in person when asked why I let him play). I let him play, and warned him against abrasive out of character commentary. Later in the game was a small issue over placement of enemies (I didn't have time to make a map). [ooc] Oh, we were just never told the invisible guy was also an Ulfen. And you still didn't mention the invisible Ulfen that we are well aware of to the south in your description. So are there four guys or three? Ulfen + Double = South, Evoker = East, Summoner = North, Mystery Guy = West? Do us a favor, never refer to the illusionary Ulfen again, we don't care about him. [/ooc] This was a reasonable response until the last sentence. I know it isn't, but it feels like an attack against me. Later, in the ooc thread, was a small disagreement over the timing of character locations and action timing. Joe posted this after three posts of discussion: Seriously, if anyone is going to bitch about timing, post more often. Like, the fourth post in this game is, "The order you post is the order you get there." Unless that dogma changes, respect that shit. Also, Dergon is going to go to sleep tonight (in-game), and wake up fully armed. Anyone that doesn't have a full character posted by the next in-game day is going to get unloaded on at 8:00am before class. Seriously, are there rules in this shit or not? If you can't finish a character sheet, you can't post. I can make shit up as I go if I get rid of my char sheet. And you definitely don't want the evoker doing that. I'm just saying, if people get to read mine, I get to read theirs. End of story. Love, Someone who games legitimately. PS. If you're a DM spy, feel free to leave your character unposted. I'll execute/disregard you accordingly for being a spy. He understandably misunderstood something I posted at the beginning of the game, but he is instantly aggressive. Even without a tone of voice, this shows anger with the use of threats and offensive words. If you watch the exchange at the end of the first page of the ooc thread, joe is the only one being angry and offensive (note that he was not the only one on his side of the argument, so this is not a matter of being "ganged up on", we read that Cadic was perfectly calm in his posts). He obviously wants to fight because even after I gave an explanatory ruling, he continue antagonizing those not on his side of the argument. In short, I am okay with disagreements with a ruling, rules based or otherwise. What I am NOT okay with is the tone of the argument. God bless spell check. EDIT: added actual post reference to quotes
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